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Post by griff on Jul 10, 2018 19:00:40 GMT -6
There was a great episode of "how I met your mother" when Barney was estimating a women's age he was dating based on her dislike of ewoks. Great clip. Probably on YouTube some where.
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Post by boot on Jul 10, 2018 19:36:56 GMT -6
I didn't have a problem with the Ewoks being cute. I like "cute" in Star Wars in small doses. My problem is what they did in the film is flat out unbelievable to me.
The Emperor had an army of Navy SEALs guarding the shield generator, and uneducated, unequipped, untrained troop of 12 year old Boy Scouts took them out.
For me, it was akin to seeing something like the Jawas take out Vader's Star Destroyer in A New Hope. It breaks my suspension of disbelief.
Avatar got it right. The natives were getting their butts handed to them--getting slaughtered--until the Force of the World kicked in.
That's how I would have "fixed" Jedi. I would have brought in the Force--something to hang my hat upon--with the mystical energy between all living things on Endor to take out the Imperials.
Then, I'd say, "Man, that Force, it sure is powerful. It even allowed those silly Ewoks to take out the Imperial Navy SEALs."
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Yora
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Post by Yora on Jul 11, 2018 4:00:42 GMT -6
It all makes so much more sense when you replace "ewok" with "wookie".
Though there is a hilarious "Zombie Mode" map in the fourth Battlefront game called "Endor at night". A group of Stormtroopers has to survive at night until the dropship arrives to rescue them. Ewoks are silent, tiny, and can see in the dark. (Which you'd expect stormtrooper helmets to do as well, but eh...)
In the end I just don't overthink it too much.
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Post by finarvyn on Jul 11, 2018 5:41:30 GMT -6
I had recognized that in most serial cartoons the villain(s) would have a plan that would almost succeed, but for some minor exploit of the heroes. Instead of just improving their plan slightly, the villain(s) would instead come up with a completely new idea that would also fail. The Wile E. Coyote syndrome. I wanted a logical villain that would take their first failed plan and try to improve on it. And I got that with the ROTJ Death Star. (emphasis mine) I love it. The second, bigger Death Star always bothered me a little, but the Wile E. Coyote Syndrome helps me rationalize it a lot!  I have a half theory that our taste for cute Star Wars characters is based solely on our age. I've noticed that ewoks seem to be hated by everyone except for two groups of people: those who were little kids when ewoks were a thing, and those who had little kids or grandkids when ewoks were a thing. I think there is a lot to this. My oldest daughter grew up thinking ewoks were cute and I didn't mind them. JarJar and TPM all happened for me at the same time as my younger kids were around 6 and 8. My son loved Darth Maul and my daughter was Queen Amidala for Halloween. JarJar was sort of a part of that whole thing, and I didn't mind him so much at all because of that. Indeed, my son loves the entire prequel trilogy a LOT more than I do because he grew up on them. I have this other theory that the internet is the cause of much of the dislike folks have for stuff. A mild distaste becomes magnified into all-out hatred when enough other people tell you that you aren't supposed to like something. I think that a continual barrage of "you are supposed to dislike this" makes it come true for a lot of people who might not have disliked something otherwise. For example, I was disappointed in the Hobbit movies but now I've grown to dislike them, in part because so many posters keep telling me how bad they are. Well, they didn't get worse. Folks just convinced me they were worse. Or maybe I'm just nuts.  |
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Post by Whill on Jul 13, 2018 22:24:19 GMT -6
I have a half theory that our taste for cute Star Wars characters is based solely on our age. I've noticed that ewoks seem to be hated by everyone except for two groups of people: those who were little kids when ewoks were a thing, and those who had little kids or grandkids when ewoks were a thing. ... So yes, I'm sure the ewoks are annoying and detrimental to the lasting quality of Return of the Jedi, but it's okay for me because I was at the right age to forever be blinded to that fact. I just barely made it as a 1st generation Star Wars fan who saw the original Star Wars in the theater and remember it. I may be something of an anomaly because I'm a bit on the left side of the Ewok Line but still love RotJ. Now I didn't enjoy Ewoks as much as my little brother who is just right of the Ewok Line, but I found Ewoks somewhat entertaining. |
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Post by Bilbo on Jul 17, 2018 22:44:49 GMT -6
I like Jedi a lot, but the older I got, the more the cutesy-ness of the ewoks started to get to me.
I love the theme of a more primitive society beating the inhumane machine of the Empire, etc, but when I found out it was originally supposed to be Wookies instead of Ewoks, I just had to rewrite my head cannon for the movie. Seems far more likely that Wookies could form a strong resistance to take out the guards at the generator. Plus it would've been a great backstory opportunity for Chewie (and Han?). Plus, because we know Chewie, we would've had instant sympathy for them, especially if they were enslaved, being forced to help build the new Deathstar.
I remember reading that Lucas decided not to use Wookies because Chewie had become too 'sophisticated' and technologically adept to buy as a member of a truly primitive species. But I'd argue a) Chewie has been away from home for a long time and has had plenty of time to learn stuff and b) I don't think he was all that sophisticated (I mean, yeah, he put 3POs head back on, but it was backwards), usually he just did what Han said and yelled a lot when something short circuited.
Also, I remember reading that Harrison Ford, Lawrence Kasdan and a few others really wanted to kill Han Solo off during the attack on the generator to increase the jeopardy and make the audience think they really might fail, but Lucas veto-ed it. Now, as a kid, I would've been upset. But as grown up, I have to say, I think it would've elevated the story and made it far better drama. Especially since it would've really cap-stoned Han's arc, going from a loner to someone who sacrifices himself for the greater good, etc.
In any case, it was still a good movie.
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Post by finarvyn on Jul 18, 2018 5:34:34 GMT -6
I remember reading that Harrison Ford, Lawrence Kasdan and a few others really wanted to kill Han Solo off during the attack on the generator to increase the jeopardy and make the audience think they really might fail, but Lucas veto-ed it. Now, as a kid, I would've been upset. But as grown up, I have to say, I think it would've elevated the story and made it far better drama. Especially since it would've really cap-stoned Han's arc, going from a loner to someone who sacrifices himself for the greater good, etc. A couple of things about this. (1) My understanding is that Harrison Ford wanted Han to die in ESB, which in part accounts for the "frozen in carbonite" thing so that if he didn't return they had a way out. With that in mind, I can see where Ford might want to have Han get killed off in RotJ as well. (2) Personally, I get tired of films and TV series killing off characters because the actor wants out. Have the guy retire or move to Bespin, or just go have adventures away from the main storyline. To me, death ought to be a big deal. Having meaningless character death in a film or TV series cheapens something that is very traumatizing in real life. Now, having said that, Bilbo's notion of bringing the Han arc to completion … that makes sense and has a purpose. I'm not sure I would have liked it, but I would have understood it. Having Han get stabbed by his son with a lightsaber and falling to his death just when you thought he was going to live … that has little meaning and cheats the audience. IMO. |
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Post by Falconer on Jul 18, 2018 7:55:02 GMT -6
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Yora
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Post by Yora on Jul 18, 2018 8:20:31 GMT -6
While Star Wars can be called many things, realistic was never among them. Rather, Star Wars reveled in the ludicrous luck and coincidences of pulp adventures.
"In my experience, there is no such thing as luck." Entertainment overrides realism.
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Post by Bilbo on Jul 23, 2018 22:24:17 GMT -6
I whole-heartedly agree with the sentiment about randomly killing off characters just because it's realistic and/or an actor wants out... Personally, I think it's a cop out and always feels like the writer has just run out of ideas, gotten lazy, or just doesn't know how to write a decent character arc (I'm looking at you G.R.R. Martin). IMO when a character dies it needs to be thematically relevant and serve the story in some significant way, demonstrating some important aspect of that characters (or another characters) thematic position within the context of the story.
e.g...
Owen and Beru die to underscore to the audience how awful the Empire really is (which we really don't see up to that point) and to drive home to Luke in an intensely personal way how important it is to go with Ben and protect the droids (i.e. shit gets real).
Obi Wan sacrifices himself for the greater good at the end of Act 2 so that Luke can complete his arc alone. As well as make him question (for at least a few moments) the merits of continuing along that path, before continuing on it of his own volition as all good heroes should, except this time with eyes wide open as to the risks.
Biggs dies for essentially the same reason, as well as to heighten the jeopardy for Luke (although this was undercut by us not having seen the earlier Biggs-Luke scenes).
On the flip side, Darth Vader survives the battle of the Death Star because thematically he never buys into the whole 'machine trumps man' ideology of the Empire (i.e., Tarkin and all the Death Star Imperials), in that he still believes in the Force over 'this technological marvel' so he is sparred the fate of the Grand Moff (that and, you know... sequels).
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Post by havard on Aug 1, 2018 15:25:26 GMT -6
I like Return of the Jedi. I would actually say it is my favorite Star Wars movie. Yes it has some flaws, but that scene in the Emperor's Throne Room. It is just amazing. But I love all of the original trilogy. I never got to watch any of them in theatres and I played with the toys before I had even seen Episode IV.
-Havard
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Yora
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Post by Yora on Aug 3, 2018 9:41:06 GMT -6
I also like the entire part on Tatooine. And everything on Endor except for Ewoks completely outperforming Stormtroopers. Which might actually be a more a problem with the use of Stormtroopers, which isn't limited to this movie.
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 16, 2019 21:40:57 GMT -6
The Star Wars is beef.
The Empire Strikes back is caviar.
The Return of the Jedi is high quality pop corn.
I love all the three equally, but recognize they are different flavors of SW. Maybe I love The Star Wars slightly the most, because I'm fascinated with the eventful film-making process that went behind it.
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